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View Full Version : Whats everybody's input on non-PI capabilities?????



Mr. Jones 4.6
07-28-2006, 11:09 PM
I recently just purchased a Sean hyland 4.6L book the talks about everything to do with our cars. Now my question is on my 1998 GT is there any possibility of getting good power out of my engine or is there no hope? If so would it be worth changing heads and what not? Also whats the difficulty of performing a head swap that would take place? Plus what all parts would I need to do such a thing? Just wondering what everyones thoughts were on this subject.

Thanks
:poke:

Supercrewzer
07-28-2006, 11:27 PM
you need bryan, highlander, to chime in on this one.

he kinda knows what he is talking about when it comes to modulars, :D

Dino
07-29-2006, 01:39 AM
hahahahahaha

o you're serious...sry

PI or bust

SVT Kid
07-29-2006, 11:24 AM
Ported SVO heads can flow pretty darn good!

Rosstang
07-29-2006, 08:42 PM
if replacing a clutch is difficult for you stop here. heads are not too hard to do, but dont expect this all to turn over in one day cuz you most likely will run into a problem. you have the sean hyland book with all the tourque specs, so follow that. also, hopefully you have done some mods to the upper end of the engine, i.e.-MAF, throttle body, intake elbow, this will help with the power and wont starve the new heads of air. (get a typhoon intake)
mmm-k......for the swap you will need these tools: (you can get from ford)
-Camshaft lock tool T96T-6256-B
-Rocker arm install tool T91-6565-A
-Dial indicator
-Positive stop tool (TDC)
-Head gaskets 3U7Z-6051-AA/BA for iron block, all aluminum block takes a different head gasket if you need to know pm me.
-permatex
-you should be able to reuse the intake gaskets
-replace your trigger wheel on the crank with an aftermarket one. Accufab makes one for the 98 gt engine's pn: CTS
-SCT tuner whe its all done for some more fuel.

Now, you have to decide what heads to buy. the SVO's are a good choice, might want to look at Patriot Performance, they have a nice product line. its also a good time to decide if you want some cams in there too.

have fun, dont buy used

joesgt281
07-29-2006, 08:43 PM
Everything you need to know is in the Sept 2006 issue of Mustangs & Fast Fords.
In part 8 of "Redheaded Step Child" (our cars....96-98), Richard Holdener has reached probably the max limits of a non-PI n/a motor.
In the first 7 parts, with all the various bolt-ons, ported heads, and cams, he achieved 275 rwhp.
In part 8, he developed his own custom intake and got up over 300 rwhp.
He's done with all the n/a stuff and in future issues will explore the limits of boosted power.
His opinion.....don't even try with non-PI stuff, it's just not worth the trouble.

SVT Kid mentioned the SVO stuff which I believe in stock form is a little better than the PI stuff, and alot better than the non-PI stuff.
Trouble is it's rare and expensive and you have to use the SVO-specific intake with those heads. I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that some ported PI heads will out-flow stock SVO heads. I don't know what cam options are available for the SVO heads but there are quite a few for the PI heads.

Don't give up on these cars my friend....IMHO they are the best looking of the SN95 family. And if you want the cure-all for the inherent shortcomings, go with a blower :headbang:

Mr. Jones 4.6
07-29-2006, 11:14 PM
Thanks guys...so pretty much what i need to do is look at other alternatives as in some power adders and some heads and cams.

Thanks I appreciate it

Mr. Jones 4.6
07-30-2006, 10:14 AM
I have decided that I see "THE JUICE" in my future!! and then maybe some headers and then to top it off 2500 stall Converter and Shift improver kit from TCI. Would yall agree that when I get my gears, 100 shot, TQ and maybe headers i think it will be a little faster.. :smokin:

TTYL

:BURNOUT:

bcbickers
07-30-2006, 06:11 PM
His opinion.....don't even try with non-PI stuff, it's just not worth the trouble.

I have to disagree a little with you, Joe. At least on the heads. Properly ported NPI heads (Renegade, Livernois, etc) will outflow ported PI heads from the same people at all lifts. I agree the stock NPI parts stink pretty bad. Most of the bump in a PI motor comes from the intake, anyways. Just that swap on a stock NPI longblock is a HUGE bump is power and torque. FWIW, nothing beats the SVO heads and intake, ported or otherwise. But those guys are some serious $$$.

Check out Modular Depot (http://www.modulardepot.com) and the Corral's SOHC GT forum (http://www.corral.net). People are having real good luck with ported NPI's. Johnny Langton from the TCCoA world put Renegade's ported NPI heads with a stock PI intake and cams on his '97 TBird and ran a sub-14 second time in a 3,700 lb Thunderbird through a 4R70W and 3.73 gears. With those mods alone, he put 280+ to the ground, again through an auto.

Don't give up on the NPI heads (but for sure dump the NPI intake and cams). They are still a viable option. However, there are many ways to go, so do some reading, research, and discussion before making your decision. It'll go a long way to helping you build the car you want. :)


Don't give up on these cars my friend....IMHO they are the best looking of the SN95 family. :headbang:

Wholeheartedly AGREE!!! I plan on buying my brother's triple black '97 vert and can already see her in final glory.... Just gotta get there one step at a time.

Good luck and let us know what you eventually decide. :D

Highlander
07-31-2006, 07:49 AM
Well here is my input on the subject.

PI heads vs non-PI heads either way you have to pay to have a set ported. The numbers that Bickers mention on a flow bench are very minimal and the PI heads have a smaller combustion chamber so the higher compression will overcome the flow numbers.

If you are on a budget, just do a PI intake swap with a set of PI cams. If you feel you have the experience to take on a head swap then by all means go with a set of heads from either VT or Fox Lake before you go with Patriot. They cost more but youíll have fewer heartaches down the road.

Cams. You have several options here and I highly suggest a set of adjustable timing gears so they can be properly degreed.

Intake. The PI intake is a great piece and make some impressive numbers. There are other intakes out there that are better but get quite pricey. Like the Bullitt, P-51 and now the Typhoon from Perf Prod. There are no real results from the last intake that I have seen so I cant speak from experience yet.

There are several options as you can see and you also need to pick a reliable tuner. I use the guys from Triangle speed and have had great results.

Good luck.

bcbickers
07-31-2006, 08:32 AM
Well here is my input on the subject.

PI heads vs non-PI heads either way you have to pay to have a set ported. The numbers that Bickers mention on a flow bench are very minimal and the PI heads have a smaller combustion chamber so the higher compression will overcome the flow numbers.

If you are on a budget, just do a PI intake swap with a set of PI cams. If you feel you have the experience to take on a head swap then by all means go with a set of heads from either VT or Fox Lake before you go with Patriot. They cost more but youíll have fewer heartaches down the road.

Cams. You have several options here and I highly suggest a set of adjustable timing gears so they can be properly degreed.

Intake. The PI intake is a great piece and make some impressive numbers. There are other intakes out there that are better but get quite pricey. Like the Bullitt, P-51 and now the Typhoon from Perf Prod. There are no real results from the last intake that I have seen so I cant speak from experience yet.

There are several options as you can see and you also need to pick a reliable tuner. I use the guys from Triangle speed and have had great results.

Good luck.



This may be a little off topic, but do you think the 2v mod motors are going to end up a "bastard" motor, like the 351C, because of the new 3v design in the '05+? I love the '96-'98 cars, but I fear the engines are not going to get the aftermarket support of the 302s did.

Mr. Jones 4.6
07-31-2006, 08:44 AM
That thought has actually come across my mind before, its just like my truck it is a 1993 ford diesel and ford did not even have a turbo put on my motor because they took the next year and came out with the powerstroke engines and in turn made my engine the "BASTARD" motor as you might call it. You know sittig back and thinking about it, it is possibly true but atleast the 96-98 motors I can turn into a PI or improve the heads to be much more powerful. Now I do not know anything about the new 3V so I do not have a place to say anything about them. Just my brief thoughts.

:headbang:

Highlander
07-31-2006, 09:01 AM
This may be a little off topic, but do you think the 2v mod motors are going to end up a "bastard" motor, like the 351C, because of the new 3v design in the '05+? I love the '96-'98 cars, but I fear the engines are not going to get the aftermarket support of the 302s did.


No I donít think this will happen to the 2V. That engine was in production way too long to be a bastard engine. 96-04 is a long run and it is still in production in the trucks.

The 351C only ran a few years and had limited production in comparison to the 4.6 SOHC and the 2V engines have a fairly large aftermarket support at the moment. If anything I am sure someone will figure out a way to wrangle a set of heads into the 96-04 cars and make it fairly simplistic to do. Remember when people started putting the PI heads into the 96-98 cars?

Mr. Jones 4.6
07-31-2006, 09:48 AM
Hopefuly your right because I would like to have a chance to go heads up with newer mustangs and really give them a run for their $money$..........ah hahahahaha

:rockon:

joesgt281
07-31-2006, 03:41 PM
someone mentioned using a PI intake on NPI heads. is this a direct bolt on?
i thought the ports were different.

Highlander
07-31-2006, 03:55 PM
someone mentioned using a PI intake on NPI heads. is this a direct bolt on?
i thought the ports were different.


ports are different but amazingly there is a power gain going to a PI intake on a non-PI head.

bcbickers
07-31-2006, 10:05 PM
someone mentioned using a PI intake on NPI heads. is this a direct bolt on?
i thought the ports were different.


The ports are different, but IIRC you RTV some of the water ports. I think I read that someone makes a gasket that works too. :shrug:

letsgo
08-01-2006, 10:05 PM
This may be a little off topic, but do you think the 2v mod motors are going to end up a "bastard" motor, like the 351C, because of the new 3v design in the '05+? I love the '96-'98 cars, but I fear the engines are not going to get the aftermarket support of the 302s did.


No I donít think this will happen to the 2V. That engine was in production way too long to be a bastard engine. 96-04 is a long run and it is still in production in the trucks.

The 351C only ran a few years and had limited production in comparison to the 4.6 SOHC and the 2V engines have a fairly large aftermarket support at the moment. If anything I am sure someone will figure out a way to wrangle a set of heads into the 96-04 cars and make it fairly simplistic to do. Remember when people started putting the PI heads into the 96-98 cars?

Actually the 4.6 has been around since the 91 T car so I think it wont die anytime soon- Plus the aftermarket is really starting to catch up nowadays- Doing a PI swap was the best thing for my 96- Cams,anyone? Also the PI intake really works on the NPI heads- there is a kit to adapt it but I have put one on a 98 stang NPI motor & was really surprised how it ran mismatched ports & all

Highlander
08-02-2006, 07:13 AM
This may be a little off topic, but do you think the 2v mod motors are going to end up a "bastard" motor, like the 351C, because of the new 3v design in the '05+? I love the '96-'98 cars, but I fear the engines are not going to get the aftermarket support of the 302s did.


No I donít think this will happen to the 2V. That engine was in production way too long to be a bastard engine. 96-04 is a long run and it is still in production in the trucks.

The 351C only ran a few years and had limited production in comparison to the 4.6 SOHC and the 2V engines have a fairly large aftermarket support at the moment. If anything I am sure someone will figure out a way to wrangle a set of heads into the 96-04 cars and make it fairly simplistic to do. Remember when people started putting the PI heads into the 96-98 cars?

Actually the 4.6 has been around since the 91 T car so I think it wont die anytime soon- Plus the aftermarket is really starting to catch up nowadays- Doing a PI swap was the best thing for my 96- Cams,anyone? Also the PI intake really works on the NPI heads- there is a kit to adapt it but I have put one on a 98 stang NPI motor & was really surprised how it ran mismatched ports & all


when I said 96-04 I was referring to the Mustang alone, not the passenger cars like Lincoln and the Crown Vic.

letsgo
08-02-2006, 09:19 PM
OK Highlander :smokin:

labbe
08-01-2007, 06:54 PM
alright, im new to this but if you read this it will answer you?.. 5.0 magazine put an article out last month that you need to read. it takes PI heads, PI intake crossover tube and comp cams and put them on a 96' gt. producing over 400hp at the crank, this kit can be purchased for about 1300 dollars. the motor is great, with the right parts and tune. e-mail me and i will give you more. but no, its not a bastard, its just looks like one.

hstang
08-01-2007, 07:43 PM
alright, im new to this but if you read this it will answer you?.. 5.0 magazine put an article out last month that you need to read. it takes PI heads, PI intake crossover tube and comp cams and put them on a 96' gt. producing over 400hp at the crank, this kit can be purchased for about 1300 dollars. the motor is great, with the right parts and tune. e-mail me and i will give you more. but no, its not a bastard, its just looks like one.


Unported PI heads? I don't see that happening. Your not going to pick up 140 horsepower over a pi engine by adding cams, and i'm guessing bolt-ons. Anymore info on this?

labbe
08-01-2007, 08:26 PM
ok, this swap is for a 96'gt with use of (pi)components. it brings compression from 9-6- /to 10-1... like i said 96' upgrade to pi comp.. its been proven on the dyno.. also with a retune.. its in 5.0 magazine the entire article... leave me your im address i will send u more. if you have a 99' disrigard its for the 215hp 96 through 98225hp



alright, im new to this but if you read this it will answer you?.. 5.0 magazine put an article out last month that you need to read. it takes PI heads, PI intake crossover tube and comp cams and put them on a 96' gt. producing over 400hp at the crank, this kit can be purchased for about 1300 dollars. the motor is great, with the right parts and tune. e-mail me and i will give you more. but no, its not a bastard, its just looks like one.


Unported PI heads? I don't see that happening. Your not going to pick up 140 horsepower over a pi engine by adding cams, and i'm guessing bolt-ons. Anymore info on this?

hstang
08-01-2007, 09:09 PM
ok, this swap is for a 96'gt with use of (pi)components. it brings compression from 9-6- /to 10-1... like i said 96' upgrade to pi comp.. its been proven on the dyno.. also with a retune.. its in 5.0 magazine the entire article... leave me your im address i will send u more. if you have a 99' disrigard its for the 215hp 96 through 98225hp

Do the math. 260hp plus cams, and a little compression, don't equal 140 extra horsepower. Don't always believe what you read in the advertisements magazines. The only way to make that kind of hp is a high compression, fully worked heads, big cams, aftermarket intake manifold. 5.0's numbers are probably 50 hp high at least. But hell, do the swap and let me know what it makes in the real world.

bcbickers
08-02-2007, 07:48 AM
ok, this swap is for a 96'gt with use of (pi)components. it brings compression from 9-6- /to 10-1... like i said 96' upgrade to pi comp.. its been proven on the dyno.. also with a retune.. its in 5.0 magazine the entire article... leave me your im address i will send u more. if you have a 99' disrigard its for the 215hp 96 through 98225hp

Do the math. 260hp plus cams, and a little compression, don't equal 140 extra horsepower. Don't always believe what you read in the advertisements magazines. The only way to make that kind of hp is a high compression, fully worked heads, big cams, aftermarket intake manifold. 5.0's numbers are probably 50 hp high at least. But hell, do the swap and let me know what it makes in the real world.


Exactly. Careful with the magazine articles. A PI h/c/i swap is good for about 60 hp max, and that's with a tune. Check out http://www.modulardepot.com for more info about mod motors and PI swaps than you can shake a stick at...

Just Chuck
08-02-2007, 09:09 AM
I have decided that I see "THE JUICE" in my future!! and then maybe some headers and then to top it off 2500 stall Converter and Shift improver kit from TCI. Would yall agree that when I get my gears, 100 shot, TQ and maybe headers i think it will be a little faster.. :smokin:




I would get at least 2800 stall and I would check with Circle D specialties for your converter needs. I wouldn't buy anyone's shift kit for an 4R70W, instead, look at having a reputible transmission person do J-Mod from Tccoa.com. Or there is a guy on f150online.com named factory tech that sells a complete valve body you can swap.

mygtsprays
08-02-2007, 10:55 AM
alright, im new to this but if you read this it will answer you?.. 5.0 magazine put an article out last month that you need to read. it takes PI heads, PI intake crossover tube and comp cams and put them on a 96' gt. producing over 400hp at the crank, this kit can be purchased for about 1300 dollars. the motor is great, with the right parts and tune. e-mail me and i will give you more. but no, its not a bastard, its just looks like one.


If Im not mistaken.... I think I read on their latest magazine that they made a mistake on the dyno results. To many people wrote in saying it was not possible to acheive those numbers. I could be wrong though.