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View Full Version : Replace the AODE with a C4 or build the aode?



1quickgt
09-10-2006, 10:02 AM
Ok well being i am going to be keeping the GT I really want to make it a car I want to keep. The aode shift's just fine but I plan on racing this car alot once I get the rest of the car the way I want it. I will be putting a 150-200 shot on it, gears & axles, drive shaft, slicks, suspension and a few other things.

Now the problem I have with this is I have no clue what to do about the trans. I have had many C4's in the past but never delt with the AODE.

If I ended up putting a built C4 and stall in the car what would i need besides the trans and stall?

Fred I'm pretty sure you delt with this on your car. Input is greatly appreciated. Good and bad please state it.

I also will only be driving the car 4 miles one way to the shop and home then to and from the track.

Thanks guys. :beer2:

HoustonLX
09-10-2006, 10:10 AM
A nicely built AODE will cost much more then a nicely built C4. But I sure do enjoy having OD in my car.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 10:22 AM
But will it cost alot more to built the AODE than it will to buy all the stuff I will need to put a C4 in the car? Again i'm a painter not a mechanic. :doh:

jboehm
09-10-2006, 10:32 AM
the stuff you need to buy for installation cost about the same. it is the build cost of the tranny that is different. although you can probably build a 4r70w for less than a built aode. the c-4 is the cheapest.

Brent88GTVert
09-10-2006, 10:39 AM
Mike, it all depends on what you want the car for. If you want a car that you can drive around on the street and cruise on the highway in confort then the AODE/4R70W would be the way to go. If it's an all drag oriented car that you don't care about running high RPMs on the highway then the C4 would be the way to go. Either trans will probably take all the power you can throw at it if properly built. A C4 will be the cheaper of the two, but I think if I had to choose I'd put the 4R70W in the car so that I could cruise it around and enjoy it.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 11:01 AM
Ok well the thing is I already have the AODE(in the car now) that I can have built. I would like to be able to drive it back and forth to the track but with Seally only being 15 min. down the road highway time really doesn't bother me. I will have my truck as a DD if I need it.

I know that the cost of parts and things for the C4 are cheaper than that of a AODE. But can I buy all the stuff I need to put a C4 in the car for the cost of the build of a AODE? If I can than it's going to be a C4 for sure.

Next thing is, I have a forged 306 in the car with P&P E7's, ceramic coated headers, 75mm TB, E-cam, running about 10-1 comp. from what I was told not possitive, and plan on the dope for sure. What size stall should I run in the car? It will be a foot brake car no trans brake.

I plan on being able to take it out for weekend cruising and to all the events that I can so the a/c and all the int. will remain in the car.

Hoping to have a low 11's full interior street car on the gas, If not a little quicker. Possible with the current motor with the plans and a C4?

jboehm
09-10-2006, 11:11 AM
i don't see that car running low 11's with the current motor and just adding n2o

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 11:24 AM
This motor in a stock suspension 89 GT with a stock 5 spd and a set of 373's ran a 12.60 on motor with et streets. Yes i know it was a Fox and lighter but with the plans i have already stated I plan on doing, I figure low 11's is a good goal.

So I figure adding a stall, C4 or built AODE, 4.10's, 150-200 shot, axles, drag suspension, tubular k-member & a-arms, coil overs, aluminum ds and i'm sure there are a few minor things i'm forgetting. Adding all those things like i listed in the first post, to this car should put it in the low 11's. I would hope so anyway. If not I guess I'll just pull the motor and buy a fox roller and do all this to a fox. Just kinda wanted to do something a little different than I have in the past, stray away from the Fox GT.

White90GT
09-10-2006, 11:29 AM
I'd keep an eye out for a nice set of alluminum heads and a cobra intake, then put a big shot plate on it with the 150 pills. E303 cam will still be "OK" with the above, but not ideal. TFS 2 or something similar would be better. I would definitely keep the AODE in the car for cruisability. Would be much more fun to have a car like that which looks good can be driven to the track, crack a low 11 or even a high 10 and be driven back home. Out of the above combo, the tranny is what would take the streetability out of it.
That said, an AODE with a manual valve body and electronic converter lock would be ideal with about a 3000-3200 rpm converter. Gearing around 3.73s with a 28" tire for the track. But to build up the AODE, you're probably looking at $1500 minimum. You might hit up Neighbors about trading services, I'm sure once he gets his mustang back on the road, a fresh coat of paint would look really nice.

Brent88GTVert
09-10-2006, 11:33 AM
Is there anything wrong with the trans that is in the car now? You need to talk to Ross about what can be done to the current trans that is in the car to get you where you want. Since you already have the overdrive trans, I'd keep it and go from there. Look for a convertor in the 3000 range.

Like Joe said I don't see you running low 11's with that motor. The 94-95's are heavy, and with only the ported E7s and the other small mods it is going to take a lot of nitrous to get it moving. I think that with a 150-175 shot you may be able to see high 11's though. Upgrade the heads and intake and you should get into the low 11's. Remember that it takes about 120mph in the 1/4 to get a ten second time slip.

Blue91
09-10-2006, 11:37 AM
Sounds like you already have your mind made up about the C4. I had the C4 and I went to the 4r70w. I LOVE the choice I made and don't regret it at all. Driveability is like stock, vs a high RPM gas guzzling POS on the hwy when going to the track. It's nice cruising at 2200rpm at 70mph on the hwy.

jboehm
09-10-2006, 11:43 AM
mike , the c-4 has only two advantages that i can see. less weight and cost less i have a c-4 and love racing with the automatic, but i may still pull it for a 4 speed auto.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 11:54 AM
Ok well I guess the AODE is the way to go by way of popular demand. There is nothing wrong with it at all but with no stall it's a pig out of the hole. I have a new shift kit to put in it but I reallt don't think a stock aode with a shift kit is going to like a big shot of gas. So I guess to Ross the trans will go. As soon as my lift gets installed here at the shop I plan on starting all this.

Is there a way to make this car a little lighter w/o taking the seats out of it? Hidden weight? Really like the way the car looks ya know. Catch's the eye either possitive or neg. it's an eye grabber.

I have a guy suposed to be bringing by a set of Edelbrock Victor JR's tomorrow that he's trying to sell. So I guess I better pick those up for the motor huh. I know the intake is different on these 94-95's but will the TB and everything bolt up to a older style systemax or anything? Like i said i'm no mechanic, i just make them look good :D

Thanks for all the comments so far guys :beer2:

jboehm
09-10-2006, 12:09 PM
depending on the piston configuration of your motor , those heads may not work. from edelbrock they have 2.05 intake valves. the 94/95 use the same intake as the earlier fi cars, but you need the TB elbow to position the TB correctly

YellowMenace
09-10-2006, 12:23 PM
I don't know what your budget is but a tubular front end will drop a substantial amount of weight without changing the appearance of the car. Most of the things you can do to lighten it will depend on how much NVH you are willing to give up. You can also gain 35 lbs or so with a rear seat delete if that's practical for you.

I made over 600 dragstrip passes and 65,000 miles on a built 4R70W (AODE). My car may be just a little slower than yours will be with the nitrous but it should hold up well. You may want forged axles just to make things a little safer and you will need a driveshaft loop if you are gonna run sticky tires at the track.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 01:13 PM
Well I was told it had KB pistons in it but that was incorrect. It has trw pistons with valve relief already. (head gasket) I plan on keeping the short block the way it is though. I already planned on a tubular K but the seat has to stay. Two kids and a wife ya know. Drive shaft loop and MANY other upgrades are coming to the car. It's going to be the official MPH car so I may as well dump a little time and money into it ya know.

rxracer
09-10-2006, 01:25 PM
stick with the AODE and get a looser/smaller converter.

Blue91
09-10-2006, 03:27 PM
Reliefs or not, those pistons will likely not clear the valves on Vic Jrs. Those heads are too large for a 306 anyways. Spend your money on a different set of heads. Instead of just buying anything and everything out there for sale, spend some time to research what combos work and what don't. Don't just throw parts on the car so you can say you have them. Mismatched parts are a waste of money.

Just Chuck
09-10-2006, 04:53 PM
Look up transmissions 101 on www.tccoa.com under the tech articles. What ever shift kit you bought for it, don't use it.

Garys transmission can do a j-mod AOD-E too.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 04:57 PM
Reliefs or not, those pistons will likely not clear the valves on Vic Jrs. Those heads are too large for a 306 anyways. Spend your money on a different set of heads. Instead of just buying anything and everything out there for sale, spend some time to research what combos work and what don't. Don't just throw parts on the car so you can say you have them. Mismatched parts are a waste of money.


Ok well it's good to know the heads won't work. Advise taken, thanks Fred.

1quickgt
09-10-2006, 05:00 PM
The shift kit is a TransGo.

Blue91
09-10-2006, 06:14 PM
Listen to Chuck when it comes to these Trans. He's been around them and ran them enough to know what's what. Or do like me and take it to Ross and tell him "make it good to go" and let him do it and pay the bill when he's finished! I would have saved SOOOOO much money and hassle had I done that from the very get go way back when. I finally wised up though and love the trans I have now! Now if I could only afford to rebuild the fockin' motor so I can finally drive the car some. Ugh.

White90GT
09-11-2006, 12:52 PM
Mike, you want a good running combo in that car that you can drive daily and run n/a 12s and low 11s to high 10s on nitrous??? Match Chuck's combo! Plain and simple, he has gotten a lot out of that motor and I guarantee you its daily driveable (well, other than creature comforts like a/c and sound deadener).
306ci shortblock
AFR 165 heads box stock
E-Bock Performer Intake
70-75mm t/b
Longtubes or shorties should be fine 1 5/8" with 2.5 exhaust
AODE with around a 3500 stall (for him, you might want around 3k for better street manners)
Custom FTI camshaft
Lots of suspension and tuning time!

1quickgt
09-11-2006, 02:05 PM
Well see, I really don't want to tare into the short black for any reason. The heads I can do and intake is no problem but I really don't want to pull that damn thing out again....The headers I have are 1 5/8 shorties with the 2.5 o/r h-pipe. The 3500 stall sounds good though, not sure I want it at 3000, i want it to hit a little harder out of the hole.


What size shot are you running Chuck? Think the E cam I have is good enough for what i'm looking at?

White90GT
09-11-2006, 02:21 PM
Well see, I really don't want to tare into the short black for any reason. The heads I can do and intake is no problem but I really don't want to pull that damn thing out again....The headers I have are 1 5/8 shorties with the 2.5 o/r h-pipe. The 3500 stall sounds good though, not sure I want it at 3000, i want it to hit a little harder out of the hole.


What size shot are you running Chuck? Think the E cam I have is good enough for what i'm looking at?


Chuck runs anything from 75 hp up to 200 hp. I believe he cracked a high 10.3x pass with it. He's been 11.4x on motor in good weather. An E303 will work OK, but again is nowhere near ideal for any combo. I would say, a Cobra Intake, AFR 165s, and the rest of the stuff you already have should be capable of mid 12s with traction and about 3300 lbs of weight.

As far as weight removal, there is plenty that can be done, you just have to be ready to pull some panels and remove insulation crap. It'll be a bit noisier riding, but its weight none-the-less. Pull the carpet and strip all the padding out from under it and off the floor. Pull the interior panels and door panels and strip all that insulation out. Look under the car and pull any unnecessary brackets off it. Front swaybar isn't needed for racing either. Tubular k-member, manual steering, etc...

Blue91
09-11-2006, 04:41 PM
A higher stall doesn't equal a harder launch or faster car. That car with heads/intake and stuff won't need more than a 2800-3200 stall. Before just assuming "bigger is better", do some research man!

FWIW, wife's car on STOCK suspension, DRs and STOCK AOD with PI 2800-3000 convertor launched off idle to a 1.600. It's a heavy pig with bar, stereo equipment, etc.

To do it correctly, do the mods to the motor then get the car dyno'd and have the convertor made based on the hp/tq values.

1quickgt
09-11-2006, 06:19 PM
A higher stall doesn't equal a harder launch or faster car. That car with heads/intake and stuff won't need more than a 2800-3200 stall. Before just assuming "bigger is better", do some research man!

FWIW, wife's car on STOCK suspension, DRs and STOCK AOD with PI 2800-3000 convertor launched off idle to a 1.600. It's a heavy pig with bar, stereo equipment, etc.

To do it correctly, do the mods to the motor then get the car dyno'd and have the convertor made based on the hp/tq values.


OK cool, I'll start off with the heads & intake.

Hey ya know I have a set of aliminum GT40's that I could use. They are already P & P'd and have crane 1.7's on them with new valves. They are on a 308 I have in a car that I'm planning on selling in a few months. I guess I could swap heads with that car that way I won't have to dump a ton into heads and rockers and such. Saving 1200-1500 on a set of heads would be a good thing. I could use that money for the trans(build) and stall(replacement).

I was just thinking of the stall I had in my black GT, it was a transking that stalled at 4800 on motor and flashed up to 52-5300 on the n2o. Thats the only reason I was saying I wanted a bigger stall.

Guess I better start reading while i'm waiting on clear coat or bondo to dry. I plan on getting this started in the next couple weeks.

Or would I be better off finding me a Fox thats basically finished (drive train wise) and get rid on this heavy basterd :doh:.

Brent88GTVert
09-11-2006, 08:11 PM
Mike once again, it's all a question of what you want the car to do and what you want to do for the car. Is there a better platform to begin with....sure, can your current car be made to where you want it....sure. If your goals are to run 11.0s in your car that lets say weighs 3400 pounds with you in it you will need 504 flywheel hp to do it. That is going to take some work and a well matched combination to get you there. Like others have said you can't just throw stuff together and make it work. My old 302 combo was thrown together and ran well for what it was but was a complete turd on motor. That had a lot to do with the way the car was set up. The car would gain almost 2.5 seconds and 25mph in the 1/4 mile when I put the 200 shot to it. It had no guts at all on motor but it didn't matter to me because I always ran the car on the bottle at the track.

If you are seriously looking at running the number then the aluminum GT40's would be a good choice, along with a RPM manifold and a custom cam. I'm a firm believer in a NOS big shot plate system. As long as you are carefull and know what you are doing you can make big power with one of them. Such big power that if you screw something up that you could be looking at a split block very easily. If you are going to run nitrous there ain't no way you will be able to run a converter in the 4200-5000 range and keep the rev limiter in check and run the entire 1/4 with the short block in one piece.

You have to do two things, you have to make the power in order to run the number and the car has to be capable to apply that power so that it goes from point A to point B in that desired amount of time. Fail at either of those and you aren't going to reach your goal.

1quickgt
09-11-2006, 09:01 PM
More I think about i I may be better off and it will be cheaper in the long run to find me a good roller with the suspension already done.

The more I think about it the more i think I want more of a race car than a DD car. I like this one and would love to make it what I want but, cost is going to be a factor.

Blue91
09-11-2006, 10:14 PM
Whatever you choose, you won't keep it more than a year. As such, you waste more money putting mods on cars, then constantly swapping them over and over. If you wanted to save money on a build, you'd choose something and STICK TO IT.

I'd have built an sn95 if I could have found one in similar shape to my 93 for even 2x as much as I got my 93 for. The sn95 is a better foundation to build from (track, street, whatever).

White90GT
09-12-2006, 07:25 AM
Mike, swap those GT40s onto it, pick up a cobra intake, some 24 or 30 lb injectors, adjustable FPR, and a big shot plate kit. I would almost guarantee you could see some high 12s n/a if you can hook it. Throw the "right" tq converter, say a PI 2800-3200 and you could see some 12.50s n/a. That and still be plenty driveable around town. I like the idea of a 12 second all motor daily driven street car. If I could afford to build another car and had the desire, thats what I'd do. Right now I just like going fast, but it comes at a cost of not being able to drive the car every day if you want to do it cheaply.

1quickgt
09-12-2006, 08:07 AM
What are the advantages of the Tubular GT40 intake over the cobra? Any at all? I had some one offer one to me at a very good price. Stick with the 75mm tb & 80mm maf I have on the car now? The only thing I don't like about the maf and intake tube it it's a C&L and it gets EXTREMELY hot, I guess because it's aluminum.

White90GT
09-12-2006, 10:34 AM
What are the advantages of the Tubular GT40 intake over the cobra? Any at all? I had some one offer one to me at a very good price. Stick with the 75mm tb & 80mm maf I have on the car now? The only thing I don't like about the maf and intake tube it it's a C&L and it gets EXTREMELY hot, I guess because it's aluminum.


I kind of like the looks of the Cobra over the GT40, but I think performance wise they are very close but the GT40 may edge the cobra out on the top end a bit. If you can get a good price, go for it. That GT40 upper might look pretty neat if you painted it the same color as the top of the car. Keep the T/B and MAF you have, they're free. I run the C&L intake tube on my car with no problems. I'm assuming that you have 19 lb injectors currently and that the maf is calibrated for them. If it doesn't already have one, get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to install on the factory fuel rails. You can get away with using the 19 lb squirters if you bump the fuel pressure on up a bit. Then when you get that killer deal on a matching 75-80mm MAF and 24 or 30 lb injectors, you can put those in.
Put all those parts on the car and see how it runs. Maybe have it dyno'd to see where the power starts to come in, then find you a good converter to match. With all those parts and a stock converter, the car will still be a dog off the line (unless you spray that is), but at about 2500-3000 rpms, it'll rip the tires loose and burn them for a city block on asphalt!

BigRed
09-12-2006, 12:22 PM
FYI

My dads 1994 Cobra tips the scales at about 3100. A/C and heat installed.
He does have a tubular K member.
You could get your 94 under 3000 pretty easily.

Just Chuck
09-12-2006, 01:21 PM
Look into getting a tweecer first before any mods. Check the 94-95 forum on the corral.net.

As luck would have it, my motor is torn down. I might be ditching my head/cam combo that I have right now for something less streetable.

The Sn95 Cobra is nice because it clears the shock tower and works with all your linkage. Any other intake and you need to use a special elbow.

Woopow
09-13-2006, 03:57 PM
I don't know if this will help but, I find it's usually cheaper to buy it already done (motor, trans, suspension, etc) than it is to build it from scratch (even using used parts). Find someone getting out of racing or selling their dreams. However, having said that I have never done that. I get too much enjoyment out of building it myself (teaching my son or whatever) than buying it already done. For me it's the journey not the destination. I looked into the cheaper C4 myself. After looking at a new driveshaft, shifter, and other things I decided to stay with the AOD. In the long run it was almost the same cost without the benefit of OD. After much searching, reading, and digesting of info on this and other websites I'm going with what some are telling you here. AFR heads (165ís), RPM intake, big shot plate, pretty much stock short block, AOD w/3400 rpm stall. My goal is a pretty much a full weight LX convertible with AC, PS, PB, PW that I can take on cruises and run low 11's on nitrous w/slicks (of course low 11's could be 11.499) without spliting the block.

1quickgt
09-13-2006, 10:08 PM
Well see my biggest problem is TIME. I don't have any so called extra time. Then there is the issue of doing the work. I am FAR from a mechanic. I can tare the shit apart with no problem buy putting it back together is a completely different story.

I would however do everything i oculd on my own if I had the time and tools. I think the biggest thing I am missing is a torque wrench. I have all the hand tools I could need.

I completely dissassembled a GT today and loved it. I really think I want another Fox though. I'm pretty sure I could find some one to trade me the 94 for a good Fox GT.

Blue91
09-13-2006, 11:04 PM
People are going to stop giving you advice and information b/c you never end up using it. You get rid of cars before you ever go through with a plan, lol.

I'll bet you have A.D.D. don't you? ;)

jboehm
09-14-2006, 12:03 AM
no fred i think it is C.D.D. ( car deficit disorder.) ;)

jboehm
09-14-2006, 09:22 AM
mike , i bet you could trade paint work for mechanical labor.

rxracer
09-14-2006, 09:41 AM
Then there is the issue of doing the work. I am FAR from a mechanic.




I would however do everything i oculd on my own if I had the time and tools. I think the biggest thing I am missing is a torque wrench. I have all the hand tools I could need.
:icon_confused:

1quickgt
09-14-2006, 12:18 PM
Ok well as MOST already know. I am a HUGE fox GT fan. I LOVE those cars. I would rather sell/trade this one for one I will enjoy and KEEP(yup I said keep). Hell I may very well end up having to sell this one anyway who knows. Bills come before toys and loans take FOREVER to be processed. :doh:

I know I could do the mechanic part of it if I had the time to take my time and do it right. Do I want to learn on my own? no not really but I may end up with the spare time EVENTUALLY.